that's especially true in the area of greatest crisis, danger in the middle east. with the arab spring, people are wanting to understand more clearly what is the strategy of the united states? how do we see a transition taking place to a democracy in syria, for example? that's a place that could blow up with terrible bloodshed and there is a need for an american president, not just the second of state, to articulate how we see it, where we want it to go, and then people begin interestingly to conform to that, and i'm not sure this white house has yet really understood that that is part of the inherent power an american president has. >> we'll see you tomorrow night. "in the arena" starts right now. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com good evening, everyone. welcome to the program.

i'm don lemon. tonight, the phone hacking scandal is playing out like a summer movie thriller. new developments exploding like robots in a transformer movie. the top two officials resign from scotland yard and david cameron cuts short a foreign trip as calls for his resignation appear in the british press. now, most disturbingly, sean hoare, one two of the whistle-blowing journalists that brought it to light was found dead in his home. rebecca brooks was arrested this weekend after resigning as ceo of news corp. she is expected to testify tomorrow. this is not her first time appearing before parliament, the clip i'm showing you is from 2003. watch closely. brooks testifying with andy coulson. coulson went on to become david cameron's spokesman and has since resigned and has been

arrested in the scandal. >> can i ask, the one element if you ever pay the bliss for information? >> we have paid police for information in the past, and it's been -- >> will you do it in the put? >> it depends on -- >> within the code and within the law, there is a clear public interest and the same holds for private detectives, subterfuge. >> it's illegal for police officers to receive payments. >> no, no, no. i just said within the law. >> this is not only the beginning of the scandal. it's the beginning of the news corporation's attempts at damage control. coulson stepping in to blunt brooks' answers. i spoke with the other british whistleblower about the death of sean hoare and about the spread of allegations of illegal practices up the chain of command at news corp. here are the other stories we're digging into tonight, first. deadline, do they know what the word means in washington? two weeks to go, no compromise

in sight. time is running out. don't ask, don't tell. the president repealed it last year. but it's still in legal limbo. this decorated west point grad served his country in iraq and afghanistan, and was discharged for being gay. he wants to know, what's taking so long? then, japan's reason to hope. inspired by the women's soccer team that could. defying a season of disaster, in a land of darkness. is the sun rising again? i want to get back to our top story, in-depth look into the phone hacking scandal at rupert murdoch's news corp. matthew, first to sean hoare's death, not suspicious, that's what police say, but certainly a strange turn of ooenchevents. >> another bizarre twist. sean hoare, one of the main

whistle blowers, first journalist to go on record to accuse andy coulson, former editor of "news of the world" and former director for david cameron, not just knowing about the phone tapping that he alleges went but condoning it and encouraging it. he appeared in the press with more controversy. saying that they had access to sensitive police technology for cash payments, by using what's called pinging to pinpoint through mobile phone signals, the whereabouts of people they wanted to track down. that was another scandal he blew the whistle on, a few moments before he was found dead.

we don't know the exact reason for his death at this point. there will be an autopsy i suspect. another twist in the ongoing saga. >> by the time we finish the segment on the show, things could have changed already. two to the british police officials resigned. john yates resigned today. another resigned yesterday. two top officials have resigned. >> it has shaken the metropolitan police. one of the biggest police forces in the world, in fact. toi to its core. stephenson stepping down 24 hours ago, and yates doing the same thing, all because of the linkage they have and the -- you know, the contact they've had with various officials from news international and with this phone hacking scandal. the ipcc, the independent press complaints committee here,

obviously an independent body which examines misconduct, it's launching its own investigation into the way police have handled this, investigation into the top two figures at the metropolitan place and the conduct of at least two other former senior officials of the metropolitan police, how they conducted themselves with the phone tapping and how they sort of interacted with journalists over the past several years. don. >> let's look ahead to tomorrow, rupert murdoch, james murdoch, rebekah brooks to testify in house of commons. what can we expect from this? >> the big box office will be rupert murdoch, one of the world's most powerful media moguls, sitting in front of members of parliament in the british house of commons, being cross-examined essentially about what he knew at news

international, news corp, about this phone hacking scandal, we are expecting to hear much less from rebekah brooks, former ceo of news international. editor of "news of the world" as with she's already been arrested so there is a police investigation into her conduct and her -- what she's been up to. and so she's going to be much more con stained as to what she'll be able to see legally to the mps, who will be asking questions. also constraints on what the mps can ask rebekah brooks. they don't want to jeopardize the ongoing criminal investigation into what brooks may or may not have done. an interesting day to watch tomorrow. >> matthew chance in london tonight, thank you very much. now more on in-depth coverage. together with sean hoare, paul mcmullan was one of the first to go on record alleging illegal

activity. he was a features executive. whatever you think of his behavior as a tabloid journalist, is he one of the few to blow the whistle on news corp behavior. mcmullan used to work with rebekah brooks and his professional relationship with her did not end on happy terms. also, we reached out to the spokespeople for brooks, andy coulson and news corporation for their response to mcmullan's allegations. we haven't heard from them at this time, but when we do, we'll pass their response along to you. i spoke with paul mcmullan earlier and asked how being caught up in the story is affecting him. >> i've got at least one story -- and someone else keeps ringing me up. three people on twitter pretending to be me, sending tweets to my family and friends, now concerned about my mental health because other people are

pretending to be me. i bought a bar six or seven months ago, it's not safe for me to stand behind my own bar. someone tried to throw a glass in my face. so many people, particularly mps, in britain, are taking credit for taking apart murdoch's empire. it was sean hoare. he was a good guy. stood up for good values in journalism and so disappointed that andy coulson, who regularly asked him to hack into people's phones, you know, the master of the dark arts turned round when we started getting caught. it wasn't us, so it wasn't me, it was the reporters, and the reporters now are getting, you know, arrested or brought into scotland yard. time and time again, rebekah

brooks said we knew nothing about it it wasn't us. and andy coulson said it wasn't us, and that made sean hoare angry it made me angry. you generally shouldn't throw your sheep to the wolves. >> was he worried about something, did he have issues because of the scandal? >> he -- well, i mean, i felt quite stressed for the last two or three weeks particularly, i think my blood pressure is a bit raised. and if you've got an existing i believe heart condition, he looked a bit of a mess recently. and the stress of this wouldn't have helped. i don't think he was bumped off. i don't think he committed suicide, there was suggestion from one of our friends that rang me up two minutes ago, but i don't think that's the case. i think he was in fading, ill health. he was disgusted the way his boss, and former friend, andy coulson, behaved. and he wanted that brought into

the public domain. and he's well done. the guy got sacked, as he indeed should be, and he got arrested. and i carried on the good work, and rebekah brooks has been arrested and next guy up, will that be rupert murdoch's own son? it might be, and all because someone crossed a boss who stabbed him in the back. >> was rebekah brooks aware of these practices? was she aware? >> i have to say without a doubt. i don't know anyone at the paper, including freelance photographers that it was going on. quite a few people were disappointed. this was going back to the 1990s, and if everyone knew in the 1990s, when she was still features editor. did she edit with fingers in her ears and hands over her eyes? i don't think so. >> do you think rupert murdoch was aware of these practices?

>> i don't think he was, no. i only met him once in the office as a saturday night as the paper was going to press, and he actually came across to me as almost a decent man, above the kind of -- the news of the world. basically, all about people having affairs. sometimes it's almost written as almost soft porn, the way a politician drops his trousers around his ankles and so on, and i almost got the impression that murdoch didn't support that, but it made a sufficient amount of money for him not to interfere. >> you believe james murdoch, he was aware of these practices, and by default, encouraged them? >> yeah, i mean where i started on this and where i started blowing the whistle was -- it was from the point of view of the story, and i remember hiding in rebekah brooks' front garden. quite rainy, not a very pleasant job, and just waiting for them

to horse ride together just -- just to illustrate the point that we have james murdoch, we have rebekah brooks and we have a man who wants to be prime minister, just a matter of weeks before the election and this is how they plan it, and this is how close they are, and maybe someone should bring this to light. and i went to all of the hub restaurants and hotels where they have went and tried to build up a picture of just how close these people were and maybe too close. >> you mentioned david cameron, the current prime minister, who has a cozy relationship, by all accounts, with the murdoches. >> yes. >> and with the people at news of the world. >> yes. >> what do you make of that? was he aware of this? was his relationship in your estimation too cozy? >> yeah. i have made my own submission to parliament. they requested my take on it. only two viewpoints of david

cameron's association with rebekah brooks. he's either a complete liar or a total idiot. he is either lying about knowing it, and if you lie in parliament, that's perjury, a 2 1/2 year potential jail term. you're not supposed to do that. >> you're making some pretty bold assertions here and some will say speculation. have you told this to police? and do you intend to testify to all of these issues that you have spoken about to us here? the prime minister's involvement? brooks' involvement? james murdoch's involvement? do you tend to go on record with this? >> i would go on the record to parliame parliament. i wouldn't go on record to the police. the police aren't showing themselves to be exactly trustworthy in britain be at the moment. and my former colleague, sean hoare, refused to cooperate with

the police and that was a fair tact to take. we only have freedom of speech in britain in one place and that's the houses of parliament. and i think i'll leave it for that. >> paul mcmullan, thank you. >> all right, thanks. still adhere tonight, the murdoch way. when you're up against it, the best defense say good offense. that tactic has worked in the past, but with murdoch facing the british parliament and u.s. legal system, i'll ask media critic and legal analyst dan abrams, will it work now? ous fls atut 100 calories. babe, what are you doing?! ♪ a network of possibilities. in here, the planned combination of at&t and t-mobile would deliver our next generation mobile broadband experience to 55 million more americans, many in small towns and rural communities, giving them a new choice. we'll deliver better service, with thousands of new cell sites... for greater access to all the things you want,

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call the number on your screen for your free dvd and information kit. to find an authorized dealer near you, visit tempurpedic.com. tempur-pedic. the most highly recommended bed in america. more on our in-depth story. the hacking scandal taking down people on both sides of the pond. we have seen resignations of two top police officials. dan abrams joins me now, founder of mediaite.com and an abc news analyst. >> good to see you, don. a long time. >> what do you make of the newsroom culture? >> i think you have to still evaluate it. newsroom by newsroom. right? can you imagine if at time warper, everyone started evaluating all of the properties together. as opposed to evaluating them individually.

now, some people say murdoch is different. a culture. at the murdoch properties that make them different. that may or may not be the case. but as a legal matter, you've got to evaluate it separately. "the wall street journal," separate from "the sun," separate from "news of the world," separate from fox news channel. >> you have to admit that rupert murdoch has had an influence on the world. >> no question. >> so why wouldn't that trickle down in the company as well if he can do it around the world? >> it's fair for us in the media to be asking about it, right? fair for us to be saying what's the culture there? is this sort of indicative of a bigger problem in the media, but as a legal matter, and you just laid this segment out by talking about the arrest. we're talking about serious stuff here. so i'm not going to sort of look at this with a broad brush. instead, it's really important when you are talking about these very serious allegations, to look at it entity by entity, and

there is no evidence up to this point that the american institutions, "the wall street journal," fox news channel, et cetera, were engaged in any kind of the conduct we're talking about. >> what are the legal implications for that culture, f rupert murdoch, rebekah brooks. >> some of the british leaders of the organizations are facing some serious allegations. >> and james murdoch, the son as well. >> he's a separate issue. he will me first talk about the people directly responsible. they are facing allegations with regard to interceptioning communication. hacking. phone hacking. if that turns out to be the case and people here did it, they could be investigated as well. that's a crime in england, a crime in the united states. the bigger concern i think for the empire, as a whole, is that the u.s. authorities are now

investigating, the fbi is investigating with regard to 9/11 victims, but also federal laws. >> right. >> that basically prevent an organization from paying off foreign officials. so usually it means paying off for a contract. like you want to get a special contract with a foreign government, you can't effectively give them bribes or you'll be prosecuting in the united states. there's some saying that law could be used to prosecute news corp here in the united states, but i think to do that, there is going to have to be some knowledge on the part of the u.s. officials that this was going on and you heard in your previous interview there, that even he was saying he didn't think murdoch had knowledge of this. >> it is probably below his pay grade, if you know what i mean. you heard rebekah brooks being asked about that, and she said, yes, did we pay police? yes, yes. later she tried to come back and clarify. >> she's been arrested.

we can focus on rebekah brooks, but she's been arrested. with regard to her, the authorities are going after her. no doubt with it. >> i'm sure you read "the wall street journal" and saw what the editorial board put in. phone hacking is illegal, and it's up to british authorities to enforce their laws. if scotland yard failed to do so adequating when the hacking was first uncovered several years ago, that is more troubling than the hacking itself. are they putting the blame on somebody else? >> this is classic for a murdoch operation. >> okay. >> which is to go on offense as good defense. i don't think that's very smart right now. if they were under less skrut snow and under less trouble, i would say go after it. but considering how much is going on on the legal front, that's almost taunting people to say, yeah, you know what? bring it on. they are the problem. the authorities, not us. >> you're reporting on this,

mediaite, we're reporting on it, abc, do you think this is schodenfreid reporting? they say any competitor that is saying this is gloating. we also trust that readers can see through the commercial and ideological motives of cower competitor critics. the schadenfreude is so thick you can't cut it with a chainsaw. >> i think in some respects they are right. i think there are some glee among competitors. >> but it's a big story. >> i'm saying that i think there is glee, and yet the problem with making a statement like that is it suggests it's not a real story, as you point out. it is a real story. it say legitimate story, but that doesn't mean -- there are many sfoers legitimate and real

where people reporting on it seem to have a great enjoyment or glee in reporting it. >> i got to get onto this. rupert murdoch's future as ceo, head of the company? >> there are reports tonight suggesting that maybe he could think about stepping down, et cetera. look, i think that's going to be a business decision. >> who would do it? >> i think he would -- i think he felt -- >> who would take his place? >> i think some of the people currently in the leadership would take over. >> chase carrie? >> i don't know. purely my guessing, based on what i'm reading would be chase carey. we should be careful. i think they are considering that, but i wouldn't be surprised if they are also suggesting that to tell the world, we're taking this really seriously. i promise you, we are not taking this lightly. so whether he actually steps down or not, i don't know. but i think if in the end it came down to saving his company or not, giving up the title at

his age, would that be something he would consider? i think so. >> good to see up. >> don, as always. >> and as always, great analysis. dan abrams, we appreciate it. senate leaders say they'll stay in session every day, even through the weekends, until a deal on the debt ceiling. but is that enough to break what feels like a never-ending stalemate? we'll ask david gergen and gloria borgen. ith three strains of good bacteria to help balance your colon. you had me at "probiotic." [ female announcer ] phillips' colon health.

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another day, snoanother ste closer to armageddon. leaders in washington still haven't reached a deal on the debt limit. they will remain in session every day until they reach an agreement. congress and america are spending in circles. is this beginning seem like the movie "groundhog day." senior political analyst david

gergen and chief political analyst gloria borger. the republicans' proposal for ending this debate, up for a vote in the house and no way that it will pass the senate, and the president said it will veto it. what's the point of doing it. is it political grandstanding? ceremonial? why do it? >> both sides have been using these debates as ways to send messages to their base to try and generate votes for the 2012 election. there was a reason that president obama wanted a $4 trillion deal. he thought it was the right thing to do, but also important to send a message independents. now republicans want to send a message to conservatives. this proposal is far more radical than anything we've seen so far. they need to send a message to the tea party and in particular,

we understand this is basically what we're for. we may ultimately have to compromise. >> don, a lot of house republicans who don't want to go along with any kind of deal to raise the debt ceiling and a vote on this is what they say is a prerequisite to go forward with any plan by senate leaders to get something done. there was a sense on the part of the house leadership in many ways, look this is a good way to get our folks on the record for what we want, and then raising the debt ceiling in any way, shape, or form would somehow seem more palatable. >> this is really about taking a stand. >> don -- don, can i ask a question? i'm wondering what the odds are of actually getting a deal by august 2nd. i remain optimistic, still think it's above 50/50. but i was disturbed and distressed to see an expert on

many years, gave an interview in "the washington post," and he put it less than 50/50. i wonder where gloria is? >> congress is a crisis-activated institution, and right above the deadline, it gets done what it needs to get done. i don't know if i still believe that, to tell you the truth. >> you never know what's going to happen. a lot of things at play. and even presidential politics. a number of presidential candidates have signed the ccb pledge. representative michele bachmann signed it, after saying she wouldn't, because the pledge didn't go far enough. and grover norquist pledge of no tax increase. it's not just the economy stupid here, but it's politics and presidential politics at that. >> it is. it's interesting to me, because up until this week, i would have told you that the republican presidential candidates were essentially irrelevant to the

debate. they were off on their own, s saying don't approve the debt ceiling under any circumstance, and the republican leadership in congress saying we have to approve the debt ceiling. the way this cut, cap and spend thing plays out it actually meshes the presidential candidates with the congressional candidates. and the people in the congress. it's kind of the -- the missing link, if you will. something that they can all join together and say, we all support this. you know, and as you said, michele bachmann wanted this to include the repeal of president obama's health care plan and she still wants to go further and do that. >> go ahead, david. i must tell you, i've been very surprised that mitt romney has embraced this. >> right. >> whatever happens this week won't pass, but now that he hazhas embraced this, he has to support it. just to give you some sense,

when people really start to look at this plan, how much -- how far apart president obama is from what the republicans are proposing, the republicans want to take spending down to 18% of gdp. obama wants to keep it around 23%. it may not sound very much. when you get down to dollars and cents, on today's dollars, it's $700 billion in difference. huge difference. >> and when you -- >> and considering -- let me get this in. and considering the lack of growth in the economy that makes these numbers even bigger. let me talk about this. i'm wondering why presidential candidates are jumping on board. here's why. more about politics of this debate. the president is still winning here. a new cbs poll shows 71% disapproval of how republicans are handling the negotiations. president obama has a 48% disapproval. does this play into not coming

into some consensus. are they trying to win but losing? >> i don't think either side looks good in that poll particularly. honestly, republicans look worse, but president obama shouldn't be happy with that kind of a rating in this also, and i think what that says about president obama, there's a question of his leadership and leadership style here and whether, in fact, he needed to step in earlier, needed to draw a loine in the sand earlier. the president's question is could he have hit this off at the pass and led differently from the white house on this? we are used to seeing the president, as in health care reform, he sat back and said you guys work it out on the hill and it didn't bode too well for him in the long term. lots of people didn't like the plan that got passed. so i think there's a problem here for the president also. >> david, quickly. i'm up against the clock here.

>> a grow with gloria. i think the president has come out better in the arguments. but at the ends of the day, he also will be held as responsible for jobs and where we are on deficits. >> thank you to both of up. >> thanks. >> thank you. over the weekend, the u.s. women's soccer team lost the world cup final in a stunning upset. up next, why you shouldn't feel bad if you felt good about the other team's win. where do you go to find a super business?

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americans hate losing, but sometimes a loss can feel like a win. a real lump in the throat bigger than sports moment, like yesterday in frankfurt, germany.

>> it is japan's world cup! >> japan's women's soccer team won the world cup, coming from behind to beat the favorite american team. but this comeback was way bigger than that. four months ago, judge pan was in shock. an earthquake. a tsunami. a nuclear nightmare. japanese society was shaken to the core. a proud people desperate for hope and inspiration. they found it in a team of underdogs who refused to quit. sure, we wish our side had won, even the president and his family were cheering for the usa. but as a japanese team heads home to adoring fans, it makes you want to stand up and cheer for an entire nation that won. and more than once during the tournament, the japanese woman hoped out loud that a victory

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the fight for consumer rights, a year since congress passed legislation to protect consumers from deception by banks and other financial companies. but there is a fierce battle in washington over who will lead the agency and how much pow ter will have. richard cordery was nominated for the top job. the opposition promises to be stiff. take a listen. >> there is an army of lobbyists and lawyers working to water down the protections and reforms we passed. they've already spent tens of millions of dollars this year to try to weaken the laws designed to protect consumers and they've got allies in congress trying to undo the progress we've made. we're not going to let that happen. >> all right. but does the president have the power to prevent it? i'm joined by simon johnson,

author of "13 bankers: the wall street meltdown and the next takedown" nice title. >> thank you. >> a red-hot political fight. elizabeth warren, she really put this agency together. why not her? >> a very good question, a very fair question. i think president obama didn't want to fight on those grounds, and, of course, professor warren can go on, run for the u.s. senate in massachusetts in 2012. >> he sounded very determined, david, but he really don't have the votes to get cordery confirmed. >> all 44 republicans are holding together as having anyone confirmed as director. may be room for a deal. other deals being talked about in washington in these weeks. and this may be part of it. >> 44 of them, you mentioned them. they sent a letter to the president saying they won't approve anyone or anything until

the agency is restructured. what do they want? is this about control, about appropriation of money? what is it about? >> probably about having a board rather than a single director. having five people on a board, the sort of structure for the ftc or fdic some of there is some republican representation. senator richard shelby, senior republican on the banking committee, says relatively small adjustments could get somebody confirmed. and that's the kind of thing he's talking about. >> this agency, they believe, the people who are opposed to it people in the financial services industry, they say there is no accountability and they want more accountability and that's what this is about, correct? >> what does accountability mean? they are supposed to be in charge, have clear and fair rules. and that's where they are headed. >> i saw elizabeth warren today, talking to wolf blitzer. she says these guys want to rip the arms and legs off this agency before it can ever get started is that true?

>> they want to de-fund it, and if they are able to de-fund it through various kinds of maneuvers that would be very difficult. the s.e.c. has a very big funding problem. this new consumer protection agency is not there yet and as long as the president comes out and fights on the grounds he laid out today, he'll win. >> i want to talk about the work of the agency itself. how much do consumers need this? we're not just talking about credit cards and mortgages and -- we're talking about unfair practices that consumers aren't even aware of. it's inside baseball. not reading the fine print. >> i don't think it's inside baseball, i don't know about you, but the last time i got clarification of credit card terms, a little document, but it was like concertina. i don't have the eyesight to read that level of fine print. >> personally, in the middle of a refi, and the person on the

other end, she may have been speaking a foreign language. all of these people don't know the parameters. most people aren't that abreast of it. >> know before you owe is one of the agency's landmark items right now, and a very good initiati initiative, and legitimate, honest people in the banking community, yes there, are quite a few of them, want transparency. they can make money, and, unfortunately, still a lot of uncroup louse players. >> i think he's a good guy, cordery. he has a background in ohio where he brought cases against bankers and lenders way out of line. he can do a very good job. >> thank you very much. simon johnson, appreciate it, sir. don't ask, don't tell. after years, the president repealed it. only to have it held up in the courts. the inside story of one american hero up next. male aouncer: be k eyes with transitions lenses.

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gay soldiers still in limbo the repeal of don't ask, don't tell, was delayed friday by a federal appeals court, frustrating news for my next guest, one of the casualties of that policy. former u.s. army captain jonathan hoskins, graduated fourth in his class from west

point, but was outed and ended up with an honorable discharge. he is now a board member of a group of gay soldiers. he joins us from washington, d.c. good evening. >> good eevening, don. >> the day you were told you were under investigation, at first it must have seemed like the worst day of your life. but ultimately, did it prove liberating for you? >> i thought it was the worst day of my life, but the days got a lot worse after that for a while. he was -- actually, both parts of your question are right, though. it was the beginning of both the worst year of my life and also the best. because suddenly something i dedicated so much of my life too and sacrificed the opportunity to have relationships and be personally happy in order to achieve some sort of professional success, that all seemed like it had gone away for nothing, but at the same time, it began a part of my life where

i could live honestly and openly, i could be an open book. i could have a boyfriend, be personally happy and seek to be professionally happy at the same time. >> when you think about what happened with don't ask, don't tell. that they reinstated it, but not enforcing it, what does that -- what happens to you when you -- when you hear news like that? do you think what is taking so long, what is going on here? >> from nearly 4,000 members in outserve, we have heard it repeatedly, a start and go process. like being stuck in a traffic jam, except this has to do with your career, and your ability to stay and do something you love and be able to serve your country. so there is certainly a degree of frustration. i think members -- members of the military were told this would happen in the summer or early fall, from the beginning of the year. so they expected that, but once there was a court process and the department of defense process going simultaneously, but not on the same timeline, it becomes frustrating. once it says it's okay to be in

the military, no we're going to kick you out, it's okay, we're going to kick you out. >> you don't know what will happen next and you are talking about 4,000 people sr. ? >> 4,000 people in our organization. >> and i am sure there are many more members in the military. >> most studies say 65,000 to 75,000 people serving in the american military forces that are gay, lesbian, by stransgend. >> the day of reckoning, what is going through the minds of the men and women in uniform? is this a distraction for them, from them doing the work they need to be doing when it comes to serving our country? >> it certainly is. being in the military, sometimes it's a game of survival. you're worried about a mortar attack. you could actually die. but if you're gay in the military, two survival games you're playing.

one, to not get injured or killed in the line of duty and second, to have the right to be able to fight for your country or be killed or injured in the line of duty. when i was in the military, i assume there is a 5% chance, my friends or not my friends could turn me in if they found out the truth. i spent three years, two of them as a company commander in alaska and didn't tell anyone, even my closest friends, even my roommates, didn't tell them one word about it. >> it's called don't ask, don't tell. but if someone else tells, you're still in jeopardy, and chances are you're going to get kicked out at least with the original policy. >> well, that was originally the way it was. for the most part, it's gone away not being enforced due to the court order and really the pentagon, while individual units have been investigating people for being gay and have processed paperwork, nobody's been eliminated out of the military, except for about four personnel,

think all in the air force, that specifically requested, no, seriously, to the service secretary, seriously i want out of the service. they only processed four out. >> i don't want to give that short shrift because it's not being enforced. is it still meaningless? >> no, it's not meaningless when you are told you do the same job but you're unequal. it's not meaningless at all. basically if the intentions of the court end to don't ask, don't tell and the intentions of the pentagon to end don't ask, don't tell, are united by the pentagon certifying and repealing the law as quickly as possible so we don't have more time for continued back and forth. the both organizations want it repealed. they are disagreeing about the timeline. the way the pentagon can get this to go faster, certify tomorrow. they will have training done on august 15th. i don't know what else they can do, considering the training only covers, hey, treat everyone

equally. not sensitivity training, it's telling everybody what the standard are given what they certify, 60 days to repeal. it's unfortunate they didn't certify nearly a month ago. >> why does anyone think rolling it back slowly is preferable. i ask that because it will have to take place among the men and women in uniform. that's where the real living is going to take place. are they underestimating our men and women in uniform? >> well, i think they are. if you look at our allies, united kingdom, australia, canada, a bunch of other countries when they repealed their law, they did it immediately and didn't have any major negative events. i think there are concerns out there, but it's really like if you're teaching a kid to swim, and you say it's going to be okay, and you prepare the kid all you can, and the kid keeps on saying i don't want to jump in quite just yet. getting additional time will make it better.

but really the kid needs to get in the water and paddle. the training will be undone on august 16th. they need to get done with the repeal and lead. that is what's going to solve this. and more than any company commander or squad leader saying treat everybody the same it will have more affect than any of that, a gay service member, the best in his squad or best in her squad, who also happens to be gay, that's the best sensitivity training anybody in the military will ever get, are the facts. we saw it under -- when desegregation happened, and we'll see it now. that will be the biggest impact of this repeal. and that is the way we solve the problem. >> i think you're reading my mind. that was my next question i was going to ask you. do you see a parallel between integrating the military among races and now among gay people and straight people? >> i definitely see a parallel in getting to a state of mutual understanding, and just basically making decisions based

off facts instead of steero types. where this is different, we are much further along when it comes to acceptance of gays and less peans now, today, than we were in 1947 when harry truman ended or started the end of segregation by executive order. >> real quickly, jonathan. is it generational, yes or no? >> explain that. >> do you think younger people in the military are more accepting of it? >> totally. the most concerned people are senior person in the military. >> would you be reinstated? do you want to be? >> there are a lot of different ways to serve my country. i know that there are other people that want to rejoin the military. >> what are you hearing from cohorts still waiting on this? >> frustration, and confusion. those are the -- those are the bottom two -- main two things that